Cap-and-trade bill draws Napa protest

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009

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By BILL KISLIUK
Register Editor

A group of protesters gathered early Monday morning outside the Napa office of Rep. Mike Thompson, D-St. Helena, decrying his vote in support of a carbon cap-and-trade measure designed to reduce carbon emissions.

The bill, which passed in the House on a narrow 219-212 vote on Friday, for the first time places national limits on emissions of heat-trapping gases from factories, power plants and other sources.

These entities will be issued permits limiting the amount of greenhouse gases they can generate. They then are compelled to curb production of greenhouse gases by using new, cleaner technologies, trading or buying emission credits from other producers or offsetting the amount of gases they emit by investing in pollution-reduction programs on sites away from their plants. The bill would require the United States to reduce emissions by one-sixth by 2020.

The 10 or so demonstrators challenged the science that supports the theory of global warming, challenged the utility of cap-and-trade legislation and wondered aloud whether Thompson had read the full measure that was approved by the House on Friday.

Marjorie Preston, one of about 10 demonstrators who hoisted American flags outside Thompson’s office, said she believes the legislation is flawed because it is a unilateral move by the United States and that there is nothing to compel other industrialized nations, specifically China and India, to address carbon emissions. “It is hurting us and not helping the environment,” said Preston.

The protest was pulled together after Friday’s House vote through e-mail and phone calls by Pam Silleman, the key organizer of the April 15 Tea Party tax protests, and others.

Mark Gasster, a member of the Napa County Republican Central Committee, said cap-and-trade has handcuffed the economies of those countries that have implemented similar legislation.

Demonstrator Jeff Erickson said he feels that this legislation and other Obama administration policies are taking the country in the wrong direction, “killing the engine of capitalism that has helped us become a great country.”

He also questioned whether Thompson had read the full bill, including a 300-page amendment introduced on the day of the vote.

“Even if you agree with everything (positive) that is said about cap-and-trade, to vote on something you haven’t read and digested is wrong,” said Erickson.

Thompson’s Washington, D.C., office issued a statement in which Thompson explained the need for the legislation.

“We must tackle the issue of climate change in order to position our economy for long-term health, and make sure that our grandchildren have the opportunity to enjoy the natural resources we do today,” Thompson said in a prepared statement. “If enacted, this bill will create up to 1.7 million new jobs in clean energy, and help us move away from our dependence on Middle Eastern oil. Although this legislation is not perfect, the House’s historic passage of climate change legislation today will allow our efforts to continue, so that we can pass a law that will protect our planet, spur American entrepreneurship, and put our economy on track for long-term sustainability.”

53 comment(s)

krusty wrote on Jun 30, 2009 12:29 AM:

" Ten people? This wasn't even worth a story. It was more a herd than a protest. The whole demonstration was pretty pathetic. "

LMW wrote on Jun 30, 2009 12:45 AM:

" Auction in the sky!
Again, Cap and Trade:) "

XMAN wrote on Jun 30, 2009 4:44 AM:

" If passed by the Senate, this law would increase individual costs of energy by $3,000 a year per family. Our government's intrusion into our ways of life because it is "good for us" - will ultimately be the death of us - financially. "

kevin wrote on Jun 30, 2009 4:53 AM:

" The bill is expected to KILL 2 MILLION jobs.

It will RAISE TAXES; by some estimates up to $6,000 for a family by 2030.

It will encourage MORE businesses moving out of the country.

It will have NO EFFECT on so called man made global warming.

Other countries that have instituted these carbon taxes are REGRETTING their actions as their economies suffer (Austraulia, Spain, etc...)

This is a bad bill that's only real purpose is to RAISE TAXES! "

Get real wrote on Jun 30, 2009 6:35 AM:

" Hey maybe Mike has been talking to Noreen Evans again. "It's nice to live with in your means, but really that's meaningless." Yep ignore the budget, just tax the evil corporations... "

Leah wrote on Jun 30, 2009 8:51 AM:

" Krusty,
I am assuming you are an individual and not a group, so by your standards, your comment would be pathetic. Whether 10 people or 10,000 people, voicing an opinion is never pathetic. Its freedom of speech. "

freeport56 wrote on Jun 30, 2009 9:00 AM:

" What Bill failed to mention in the article and what Thompson was unaware of (that list is too long to mention) is that the European Countries and Austrailia, that have put in Cap & Trade have devastated their economies. They are all getting out of it a lightening speed.

krusty- at least we were there having our voices heard by our congressman, even if a poor and uninformed one.

According to Mike Thompson himself, he completely relied on the UN's IPCC report and no other scientific evidence. He did not even know about the suppressed EPA Climate Report that debunks what the Dems are talking about.

I have a copy of the 98 page report if anyone is interested? "

Raven wrote on Jun 30, 2009 9:01 AM:

" and explain to us how this intrudes Xman... "

nightwatchman wrote on Jun 30, 2009 9:03 AM:

" Seriously, Krusty, I'm going to go get nine friends and get in the paper! What should our cause be? ATM fees? The Nightwatchlady leaving the cap off the toothpaste?

Seriously though, the nonpartisan gov't report about this had the avg cost per household at 170 bucks a year. It must be nice to be Rush Limbaugh, make up numbers, and then see them repeated endlessly by parrots like Kevin.

If you believe that climate change is some vast left-wing conspiracy to RAISE YOUR TAXES (just because they enjoy it, or something), any cost is too much. If we do nothing, I hope you all will be sure to apologize while we're standing up to our waists in water on Main St. "

TAXPAYER wrote on Jun 30, 2009 9:10 AM:

" Cap and Trade or should we call it Ball and Chain?
It's time to revolt America!

Have a nice day. "

vocal-de-local wrote on Jun 30, 2009 9:53 AM:

" XMAN, it might be the death of us "financially" but it might save the lives of future generations. We cannot continue expanding and expanding forever. It's time for a slowdown. And yes, it's gonna hurt because our growth occurred too suddenly, much too quickly. "

ncwines wrote on Jun 30, 2009 9:58 AM:

" 10 people?! That's the best they can do? Geez, I have more people at my bbqs! I think the number of people that turned out for this "event" shows how totally out of touch these individuals are.
But I am all for, and will always be in favor of freedom of expression.
Congressman Thompson, we thank you for your vote and our country thanks you for your continued service to our great nation. "

Shaun M. wrote on Jun 30, 2009 10:09 AM:

" I read almost 200 pages of this bill. Horrible, absolutely horrible. Global Warming is barely mentioned. This issue is becoming IRRELEVANT because past pro-warming champions have jumped off the bandwagon, such as Claude Allegre who is credited with being a very early proponent over 20 years ago. The founder of The Weather Channel called it the 'biggest sham ever.' This bill was egregious. Taxes on cows for methane, EPA approval for non-complying lightbulbs. Every town, municipality and village will also have to retrofit all heating/cooling/streetlighting to be in compliance. What is it with the Democrats absolutely burying this nation in fees, taxes and penalties?! During an economy in a freefall?! Idealogues and alarmists, congratulations IF this passes the Senate and thats a big if. Now the rest of the nation REALLY hates CA because it makes our restrictive and draconian build standards mandatory for the other 49 states. I'm sure everyone is just dying to emulate all that is California right about now. Co2 accounts for about 2% of our atmospheric particulates. Greatest fraud ever. "

7390 wrote on Jun 30, 2009 10:33 AM:

" HI KRUSTY.....ACTUALLY THE COUNT WAS 25-30 PEOPLE, (WE HAD OVER 1000 ON APRIL 15TH, BUT THAT TEA PARTY WENT FROM 8AM TO 9PM AND THE LIST OF TEA PARTIERS HAS EVEN GROWN FROM THAT APRIL 15TH SIGN IN LIST) I HAVE BEEN THRILLED BY THE OUTPOURING OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN ACTIVE OR OUTSPOKEN BEFORE. BUT THAT IS NOT THE IMPORTANT PART. THE IMPORTANT THING IS OUR MESSAGE. WE ARE CONCERNED AND SCARED TO SEE THE RAPID CHANGES TAKING OVER OUR COUNTRY. WANNA LEARN MORE? COME TO A TEA PARTY, WE ARE A NON PARTISAN GROUP AND FAR FROM PATHETIC. OUR GOVERNMENT HAS GOTTEN OUT OF CONTROL AND WE ALL NEED TO BE AWARE. THANKS FOR BEING CONCERNED. "

freeport56 wrote on Jun 30, 2009 10:46 AM:

" Lets see. the House version of the "Cap & Trade" contains $2 TRILLION in new taxes and the Senate version contains $1.5 TRILLION.

If this bill passes every time you turn a light on, go to the store, work, school, take a bath\shower, heat your pool, cool your wine, you will pay higer taxes. Not only that, the emissions reduction will reduce the production of energy in the US. If you view the Excel show the power plants in CA you will see that the majority are coal fired. Note their output in Mw versus the solar plants. You will see it will take 4 to 8 times as many solar plants to replace the coal plants. Since Senator Diane Feinstein has already prevent one of the best places (high desert in So. Cal.) to place a solar by protecting the area, where will they go. Wind farms are great only 40% of the time.

Where will the power come from to run our cars? Without the power electric vehicles are a waste of time. Will you have the money to retro fit you home to all the new standards for energy efficiency prior to you selling it? The answer is easy, no.

The last best arguement is why are all the other countries who have already been using Cap and Trade4 dunmping it. Because it ruined their economy that's why! "

Explorer wrote on Jun 30, 2009 10:58 AM:

" No mention of the millions of green jobs that will be created and the fact that as a leader of green technology we will be able to sell our green technology and processes around the world?

How about unassailable facts that pollution costs of many billions of dollars a year in healthcare costs and hurts millions of people who are now living with ailments from that pollution?

There are no valid arguments against the fact that man is creating a warming trend faster than we have ever seen. The only argument is how much we are contributing to it. The danger of the ice shelf’s melting is so severe that it is absurd from a risk standpoint to not be addressing this issue.

Cap and trade is far from a perfect solution but it is a start towards a worthy goal. "

littlejoe wrote on Jun 30, 2009 11:12 AM:

" I think you are missing the real problem here people. Cap and trade does nothing to address the companies who are polluting and destroying our environment. These companies who wish to pollute above the cap limits simply pay someone or some other company who is below the limits and then they are free to continue polluting.

This allows these offenders to simply pay a small fee to continue polluting. We are then still left with the original problem that these companies were polluting the environment in the first place.

If congress were serious about combating pollution they would go after the people and or companies doing the polluting in the first place.

Common sense dictates that if you wish to stop pollution and rising greenhouse gasses, you go after the people and or companies doing the polluting. "

krusty wrote on Jun 30, 2009 12:05 PM:

" My comment was made partially in jest. You see, some of the same people who would have endorsed this miniscule protest are the same people who had a problem with those protesting the passage of Prop. 8. In fact, the last two sentences of my comment were copied from the comment section on the articles about those protests. It's not very funny when the negative comments are directed at your protest is it? "

silversalmon wrote on Jun 30, 2009 1:53 PM:

" At least they aren't going to tax the CO2 from fermenting grapes. "

noblindershere wrote on Jun 30, 2009 2:12 PM:

" "attack on capitalism" the worst attack on capitalism lately has been the greedy investors that stole money from people over the last ten years. 10 people organizing, wow! "

Shaun M. wrote on Jun 30, 2009 2:36 PM:

" I have yet to converse with any eco-alarmist that has read any of this bill or quotes anything besides Al Gore's movie-much of which has been debunked. This is a cash grab by the federal government. It's called confiscatory. THE leading global warming proponents in Australia and France-hardly bastions of conservatism have abandoned the junk science and no longer endorse MANMADE climate change. Even the global warming handlers are giving marching orders to abandon the term 'global warming'. Over 40 Democrats crossed the aisle to vote against this horrendous bill. We are building policy based on the 60 UN scientists and their findings/report last year. Nothing is mentioned of the 200+ that dissented from it calling the science 'inconclusive.' This is almost purely about permits, licenses, fines, fees and politics. Green jobs!!?? Hysterical! You mean the wind/solar jobs that Feinstein and Boxer refuse to kickstart because the enviromentalists are at odds with the conservationists, so no panels or windmills in CA. Democrats talk a good game on 'energy independence'-they just don't want to be bothered with practicing it. Too funny. "

DinoSilver wrote on Jun 30, 2009 5:00 PM:

" Cap and Trade really means we will CAP our economic growth by TRADING jobs overseas. Talk about another reason to outsource jobs!!! Just go to China or somewhere else where there is no Cap and Trade. I am completely suspicious when our governemnt is legislating control of a chemical humans naturally exhale - CO2! 2010 cannot get here soon enough. I just hope we get some good Republicans with enough chutzpah to challange our current politicians. "

freeport56 wrote on Jun 30, 2009 6:14 PM:

" Explorer-

You obviously are not a believewr in scientific data. There is plenty out there to prove your comments erroneous.

I am enclosing the ling to the .pdf file showing the report that was suppressed by the EPA. It disproves everything you say. I will agree that we need to do a better job at tackling pollution. I think we all believe that, but global warming caused by man, all hoax, smoke, mirrors, and propaganda.

http://cei.org/cei_files/fm/active/0/DOC062509-004.pdf "

XMAN wrote on Jun 30, 2009 10:59 PM:

" For those who "just don"t get it" the government intrudes on us every time they tax us arbitrarily. Especially for such a reason that has no solid scientific basis. Certainly the planet is warming up but that could simply be an extension of the end of the Ice Age.
A scant 36,000 years ago the planet had ice all over it. Everywhere. Now the tropics have pushed North and we have more pleasant climates. There is plenty of evidence of glaciers melting before the industrialized revolution took place. The majority of our pollution on the West Coast comes from Asia. If we clean up our air, whom does it benefit? Europe. The world's air currents are constant and never change. If the glaciers at the poles continue to melt at the present rate the world's oceans will rise 20 inches by the year 2100. That would be barely pereceptible in the brackish waters under the First Street Bridge at Copia.
These proposed taxes are regressive taxes because the taxes charged to the utility companies are passed on to the consumer. A regressive tax is one that hits everyone the same. Rich, poor and in between. Rich people will not be affected. Poor people will not be able to afford heat in the winter. They will suffer the same indignities that people suffer in a third world environment. Stop this insanity. "

Rocco wrote on Jul 1, 2009 7:21 AM:

" Cap and Trade will do nothing to help the environment, it will hurt our economy at a time when it is already on the ropes...but who cares? These points are mute. This is just one more item in our new administration's "To Do List." Their agenda is the single largest statist power grab the planet as ever seen. And we, the dupes, are allowing it to happen. "

John Richards wrote on Jul 1, 2009 11:04 PM:

" I have seen creditable studies saying that for every new 'green' job created, 2.2 non-green jobs will be lost. That is progress? Cap and Trade will be a disaster for this country. "

Raven wrote on Jul 2, 2009 6:43 AM:

" the insanity that should stop is the know-nothings hiding their heads in the sand and pretending nothing is happening...and not worrying perhaps because they feel they won't be around to have to deal with it. These same people who rail about leaving debt to their grandchildren don't seem to worry about leaving climate destruction for them to deal with.

If the glaciers at the poles continue to melt at the present rate the world's oceans will rise 20 inches by the year 2100....

taxman, take a look at the maps and see how much of the current coastline will disappear with a rise of 20 inches and what that means in shifts in population density...take a look at what changes of a couple degrees does to the growing seasons and as the climate of south Texas moves north into Kansas and Nebraska, see what it does to agriculture .... who won't have the luxury of plentiful rainfall to irrigate those crops ... but then you won't be around so why worry about it. "

Raven wrote on Jul 2, 2009 10:31 AM:

" sorry, that should be xman "

diehard4ever wrote on Jul 2, 2009 12:37 PM:

" Global warming, climate change, whatever you want to call it is a scam. It's been proven time and time again that Gore is just some politician trying to make a quick buck. I've asked this question to every person that has challenged my opinion on the so-called climate change, and so far no one has come up with an answer that makes better sense than mine... What caused the Ice Age to end? What other answer makes ANY sense besides the fact that global warming is a "cycle"? The last person I asked said "the sun". No kidding. Does anyone have anything better to offer? "

Raven wrote on Jul 2, 2009 3:42 PM:

" hate to disappoint ya diehard..but it isn't just Gore.....and the sun and its sunspot cycles, among other factors, has been theorized as the 'culprit' in the end of the Ice Age....so the sun isn't the silly anser you think it is... "

diehard4ever wrote on Jul 2, 2009 9:29 PM:

" Raven-
Thank you for proving my point. There is plenty of evidence pointing to the reality that global warming (It's called that today, right?) is a cycle. "

Raven wrote on Jul 2, 2009 11:07 PM:

" Diehard, you ignore the other factors such as massive increases in CO2 levels.No one has said it was just one thing, it is the multiplying effect from a number of factors that makes it so deadly, and so hard to control, (and it is climate change....) "

XMAN wrote on Jul 3, 2009 1:48 AM:

" Mssr. Raven - a natural mistake and easily forgiven. Always admire your classy sense of decorum. XMAN

Freeport56 cited a URL on his posting:

http://cei.org/cei_files/fm/active/0/DOC062509-004.pdf "

It is a bonafide scientific report stating unequivocally that for the past two years the EARTH IS COOLING DOWN.

The EPA didn't read it. Most of the members of Congress didn't read it.
President Obama didn't read it. Has anyone here read it? "

Raven wrote on Jul 3, 2009 9:52 AM:

" yes..have it on my desktop....and several things come to mind...first is the EPA did read it- it is their report..second it is a draft report with a minority position that the vast majority of the scientific staff at the EPA disagree with and hold as invalid...so it is not unusual for members of Congress and the president to not have seen it or that it was not published.....thirdly....the draft report includes no conclusions at all.

(btw, the report also says that the CO2 levels are rising) "

WorksInNapa wrote on Jul 3, 2009 10:19 AM:

" This is wine country. How would you like to get your wines in a pouch instead of a bottle? Some overseas companies are switching to PET pouches wich offer a carbon footprint of 20% less than glass bottles. Sounds silly to me but so does taxes of $175 per dairy cow, $87.50 per beef cow and $20 per pig for the animal flatulence tax. Why don't these people read what they vote on? Where has common sense gone? "

XMAN wrote on Jul 4, 2009 2:49 AM:

" The GHG report is packed full of scientific conclusions and with study analysis galore.

The GHG report states:

1. Info that EPA is now using is 3 years out of date.
2. "Global temperatures have declined" (direct quote) with graphs and charts.
Has anyone followed our severe U.S. Winter temps mid-continent this year?
3. Atlantic tropical cyclones will be little different from those of the past.
4. Future sudden ice melts are improbable.
5. One of the worst economic recessions since WWII has greatly decreased Green House Gases.
6. This report issued expeditously in March of this year; goes on with chapter and verse to enumerate the reasons to reject adverse Climate Change THEORY. All one has to do is to read it. It's there for all to see. An excellent reason to reject any proposal for Cap and Trade. Because cap and Trade is based on BOGUS SCIENCE ... or no science at all. "

Raven wrote on Jul 4, 2009 8:20 AM:

" If you are referring to the greenhouse gas report, the GHG report shows

1) CO2 levels are rising, figure 2.2,

2) that total emissions of greenhouse gases are rising;

3)"Although the direct greenhouse gases CO2, CH4, and N2O occur naturally in the atmosphere, human activities have
changed their atmospheric concentrations. From the pre-industrial era (i.e., ending about 1750) to 2005,
concentrations of these greenhouse gases have increased globally by 36, 148, and 18 percent, respectively"

but if you are still talking about the report cited by freeport, again it was a draft report, and was, as many draft reports, rejected..... "

XMAN wrote on Jul 4, 2009 1:04 PM:

" Rejected for political reasons. It didn't jibe with Obama's Master plan to recreate the United States into his own image and likeness.

Solving the world's GHG problems by taxing a people who are in a deep recession and facing a severe depression is just plain ludicrous.

It makes no sense at all.

There are serious problems that must be resolved in cleaning up the environment and we as a nation have been remiss in doing that very thing.

But let's do it as a voluntary act and not something that is forced upon us by Orwellian legislation.

We saved the whales by asking the world to cooperate, we can do the same with the GHG. Everyone has to do their part - not just one nation with more and more taxes being imposed upon them. Let's act fairly and logically. We cannot do it alone. "

Raven wrote on Jul 4, 2009 7:40 PM:

" and again, Xman, you know it was rejected for 'political' reasons because?

As far as saving the whales, do you think we would have gotten that cooperation if we had waited for everyone else to act before we did anything?..there is nothing wrong with leading the way. "

XMAN wrote on Jul 4, 2009 9:53 PM:

" Excuse me Raven, asked and answered.

No matter how much anyone attempts to skirt the main issue by pretending this is going to "good for us"; the final issue is:

Please Democrats in Congress - you've taxed us enough already.

If they do it it will cost them some votes in the next election so I'm pretty much betting that all of this discussion is pretty much academic for now. I think eventually even Obama will "get it" even even though a minority of the posters on this board do not. "

Raven wrote on Jul 4, 2009 10:06 PM:

" you gave suppositions xman...we are asking for facts.... "

XMAN wrote on Jul 5, 2009 1:01 AM:

" Raven - who is "we?"

Is it a supposition that our nation is in deep financial doo-doo and the government is trying to raise taxes?

Or is that a fact? "

XMAN wrote on Jul 5, 2009 2:36 AM:

" Clean air and securities bill AKA
Cap & Trade but better described as Cap and Tax. What is it? The largest tax increase in American History. Who voted for it? In the House 32 Californians all Democrats except for Republican Mary Bono Mack. Who voted against? 18 California Republicans and 2 Democrats. How partisan is this thing? Extremely partisan. Both ways. If the senate passes this the president will surely sign it. Once enacted it will have the effect of the Democrats collectively shooting themselves in the foot. It will be a big help to the presently disfunctional Republicans in the 2010 election campaigns. Thank you very much! "

asahigo wrote on Jul 5, 2009 9:40 AM:

" So the government is going to tax our main meat sources. Do you folks honestly think that farmer John is going to absorb these ret@rded taxes. Or are you smart enough to understand that the cost will be past on to the consumers (ie you).

The next step in this ridiculous line of taxing will be to tax human flatulence.

This stupid idea of carbon credits doesn't actually solve anything. All it does is force companies to spend money buying carbon credits from other companies that don't need all of the ones they are allowed. The result is NO REDUCTION OF GREENHOUSE GASSES (wish we could bold and/or underline instead of being reduced to using caps).

Sure a few trees may be planted, but those few trees hardly make up for the rising numbers that are cut down each day.

Solving the green house gas issue is as easy as planting trees and plants instead of destroying the rain forests and old growth woods around the world.

The use of energy efficient lights, climate control systems, and appliances will also make a big impact.

Summary: Carbon credits = failure. "

Raven wrote on Jul 5, 2009 10:27 AM:

" 'we' are any number of people on this site in a number of threads, who repeatedly ask you for facts, not suppositions and innuendo...conspiracy theories are great but you cannot deal with any situation until you have facts.

and I do love the declarations of failure for a program that has yet to be even passed and sent to the president. "

XMAN wrote on Jul 5, 2009 10:43 PM:

" From everything I've read in today's major newspapers with commentaries and editorials; Cap and Trade is a BAD IDEA. Obama's Republican buddy, Colin Powell said that Cap and Trade was going to do more harm that good and had no positive guarantees. He will personally urge President Obama to change course on the subject first thing tomorrow morning. "

Skip M. wrote on Jul 7, 2009 7:39 AM:

" What is happening in American Politics of late would be comedic were it not so devastating to our economy and way of life. Our elected officials are not much more than glorified used car salespeople. “Don’t worry about the fine print, just sign here.” This country’s rise to greatness is on the brink of becoming a fall from grace. And if that does in fact happen, it will be the fault of good people that simply played by the rules and never question those rules.

It is truly time for revolution and a return to the founding principles of this country. We don’t have actual tanks rolling down Main or Jefferson streets (yet), but we are faced with a political juggernaut that can be just as devastating.

The liberals in Alaska managed to chase Sarah Palin out of office by burying her in ethics commission complaints. It is time to do the same with all our senators and congress people, legislators, and judges that promote and support these devastating initiatives. Bare in mind that an ethics commission complain need not actually be accurate. Just the existence of the complaint requires a response. In short, it’s time to bug them to death. "

freeport56 wrote on Jul 7, 2009 11:08 AM:

" Raven-

look at what it did to Spain, Germany, England, and Austrailia. "

John Richards wrote on Jul 7, 2009 11:35 AM:

" The whole issue of 'carbon credits' is a boondoggle, especially when you realize that Al Gore stands to make a killing from his carbon trading investments.
As for CO2, not to worry. trees and plants love the stuff and will grow all that much quicker, converting the excess CO2 to O2. Haven't you wondered why Global Warming was changed to Climate Change? It's because they can't prove the earth is getting warmer from CO2. "

LittleJoe wrote on Jul 7, 2009 2:24 PM:

" " I think you are missing the real problem here people. Cap and trade does nothing to address the companies who are polluting and destroying our environment. These companies who wish to pollute above the cap limits simply pay someone or some other company who is below the limits and then they are free to continue polluting.

This allows these offenders to simply pay a small fee to continue polluting. We are then still left with the original problem that these companies were polluting the environment in the first place.

If congress were serious about combating pollution they would go after the people and or companies doing the polluting in the first place.

Common sense dictates that if you wish to stop pollution and rising greenhouse gasses, you go after the people and or companies doing the polluting. " "

freeport56 wrote on Jul 7, 2009 4:48 PM:

" Raven-

Who measured the CO2 in 1750? "

Raven wrote on Jul 7, 2009 5:29 PM:

" you can measure CO2 quite easily by examining ice core samples, freeport...done all the time.

and those trees you are raving about JR, we have less and less of them every day...so what is taking their place in dealing with the rising CO2 levels? "

O/U now wrote on Jul 8, 2009 7:21 AM:

" To all the sheep who are going along with this bill. It is not about global warming, its about TAX! READ the bill, it has so many loop holes for "favorite friends" of the goverment. It may feel good to think that Obama is going to save the enviroment, but that is not what this bill is about. Why punish natrural gas and give coal a boost? This is just one fault of this bill. Read it before you defend it.... The truth will set you free! "

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